The Politics of Retirement

Speaker 1 (00:07): Welcome back to your thriving practice, a podcast from global Atlantic. I'm your host. Dan Corcoran global Atlantic is a leading retirement life insurance company that creates innovative products to help meet your clients' financial goals. In this episode, we'll bring you up to date with the secure act 2.0, which was first introduced in March, 2021 and is currently pending in Congress. This legislation is called secure act 2.0 because it follows the 2019 secure act, which included many reforms to encourage Americans to save more for retirement. This new secure act builds on that in order to further address the anxiety that many Americans are feeling about their retirement, a concern that has been deepened by both the COVID 19 pandemic and recent stock market volatility, retirement legislation, like this is pretty rare in Congress and it's likely we won't see another similar bill for another decade that makes it particularly important that we get it right.

Speaker 1 (01:12): And in that it provides the maximum benefits for both financial professionals and their clients. So at this point, secure act 2.0 is really three proposed bills. One that passed in the house in March of this year and two that are still moving through the Senate together. They include dozens of provisions that promote retirement savings. We'll discuss several specific provisions during this podcast. There's still work to be done in combining and passing these bills, but there's a great deal of bipartisan support for the legislation. And Congress is expected to pass it later this year. Joining me now to talk about secure act 2.0 is Paul Richmond, chief government and political affairs officer at the insured retirement Institute. IRI Paul, thanks for being here.

Speaker 2 (01:59): Thank You, Dan. And thanks to global Atlantic for the invitation

Speaker 1 (02:01): Also with us is Frank O'Connor vice president of research at IRI. Frank. Welcome. Thank you. Happy to be here. And bill crane, senior vice president of market development at global Atlantic. So bill, welcome to you. Thanks Dan. It's a pleasure to be here. So let's start at the very basic foundation here and discuss the first secure act to passed in 2019. So what were the key provisions of that law? Paul we'll start with you.

Speaker 2 (02:27): Well, the secure act was a bipartisan bill that had been years in the making before the secure act became law in 2019. The last comprehensive private sector retirement bill was enacted in 1996. So 13 years we had no real reforms or necessary modernizations and enhancements for retirement security and federal law. And what the secure act contained were a number of measures that were all designed to strengthen the retirement security for millions, more of America's workers and retirees. This new law provides them with ways to expand their savings and income prospects during their retirement years, it made it easier for employers to provide their full-time and part-time employees with the opportunity to save for their retirement years in a workplace plan. It also allowed for the expansion and preservation of opportunities to save for retirement. By allowing more small businesses to join together, pull their resources and offer retirement benefits through a newly established vehicle called the pooled employer plans or PEPs.

Speaker 2 (03:36): The secure act also allowed employers to offer workers enhanced plan features by making some changes to automatic enrollment and auto escalation and encouraging that with some incentives. And finally, from a lifetime income perspective, the secure act did a lot. It requires actually that a lifetime income illustration is provided in everyone's annual plan benefit statement. So that would allow savers and workers to make more informed decisions about how they're putting their retirement savings together. And most importantly, the secure act will increase access to lifetime income products and workplace plans, which is really needed to help address some of the anxieties that are out there that people are facing from the increased risk of outliving their retirement assets. As they enter into retirement years, it included a measure that clarified Therissa rules, which now make it easier for employers to offer protected lifetime income products, such as annuities, as part of their workplace plans. It made annuities more portable and it increases the age at which required minimum distributions must be taken as well as repeals the age limit for certain IRA account contributions.

Speaker 1 (04:50): And Paul, just a quick follow up to that. We said this kind of legislation doesn't happen all too often. So why does Congress believe that another secure act is necessary? Now

Speaker 2 (05:00): While, while the secure act had put more America's workers and retirees in their families on a path towards a more secure and dignified retirement, many of those workers in retirees still remain concerned about their financial security for their retirement years. They're particularly anxious about their ability to accumulate the savings don't only, and that anxiety became more prevalent as the workers and retirees were faced with the pandemic and dealing with the economic and health consequences of that almost once in a lifetime event. And now as we're coming out of the pandemic economy, we continue to see anxiety being expressed because the combination of economic challenges that we're seeing today, inflation of market volatility and chances of a recession and how that will all impact retirement savings

Speaker 1 (05:50): And bill, you want to add something there?

Speaker 3 (05:52): Yeah. Dan, I think this shows really what a crisis we have in our country with retirement. You know, what do we hear about Congress? It's it's divided. They can't agree on anything. They can't come together. And here we have three major pieces of legislation in the last three years where Congress came together and supported this. So, you know, with this bill in the house, back in March, it passed 414 to five AOC, the liberal representative from New York, Marjorie Taylor green, the conservative representative from Georgia. They came together and both voted on this. When, when was the last time you heard them coming together and voting on something together. So it does show what a crisis we have in this country. And, you know, I'm thankful for Congress. I'm thankful for my co guests here, Paul and Frank for all the work they've done on Capitol hill to address this crisis. And we see our government working here and making things better for the country.

Speaker 1 (06:41): And let's talk about a little bit more about what the provisions of the secure act 2.0 would be. So Frank, let's bring you in here to this part of the conversation. What stands out to you or some of the things that could make the biggest differences here?

Speaker 4 (06:52): Oh boy, how much time do we have you know, we look at the findings of our research and we see that, you know, some 40% of workers have not saved anything, a significant percentage of those that have, have pretty low balances. So when we look at things that are going to increase the opportunity that workers have to participate in their defined contribution plans and increase their contributions, that that's so important because, you know, as Paul mentioned earlier, we're talking about income prospects, right? We're talking about, you know, how are you going to create income and retirement when you don't have a defined benefit pension plan? And the, the expansion that occurs as a result of secure in the plan availability for the small business market, as limited as the accessibility to define benefit plans is overall it's, non-existent in the small business market. So that's where we really need to have, you know, this access expanded because you can't create meaningful income in retirement without meaningful savings, right?

Speaker 4 (07:58): So that opportunity has to be there for people to be able to increase and, and to start early, right, start early and get the benefit of compound earnings and, and really get to retirement with an amount saved that provides some flexibility into how you can create your emergency fund and your amount that's maybe earmarked for medical expenses. And then the second thing I'd like to connect to, which I think is really important and secure, and maybe hasn't gotten quite as much coverage as some of the other provisions, but the Lida provision, the lifetime income disclosures, you know, that's a place where we see in our research and, and one of the more recent research pieces that we did or, or projects that we did included a retirement IQ test, if you will, and people by and large, don't do a very good job, translating an amount of money that they've saved into a potential income amount.

Speaker 4 (08:51): You know, so there there's a tendency to overestimate how much income can be produced for a given level of wealth. So having those income disclosures on statements and having people be able to actually see what their plan balance would produce in income, I think we need to be shining a light on that as an industry and connecting to that with tools and simple illustrations that allow people to see how much that will increase based on their contributions increasing, you know, so we have some things that are geared toward access geared toward increasing participation and all that.

Speaker 1 (09:22): Now, as with most legislation, it can get confusing for a lot of people who are hearing this as well as for even financial professionals who are hearing this. So I think it's really important to get specific about some of the provisions and what they will do bill or, or Paul do either of you wanna jump in with any of the insight that you have on the provisions that you think will make the biggest impact that people should know about.

Speaker 2 (09:44): One of the biggest ones are the changes that are made to the qualified longevity, annuity contracts, or Q L a as they're more commonly known. We know that Q a CS can be a valuable tool for retirement income planning, as they do address the risks that many face of outliving their accumulated retirement savings. Unfortunately, current department of treasury regulations limit the amount that an individual can save when they're buying a Q L a C, and that reduces their ability to ensure against outliving their savings during their retirement years, what this bill would do. If it becomes law, would amend those regulations to offer individuals more opportunities to use Q a S to meet their longevity protection needs. Specifically, the provision will increase the limitation currently in place on premiums and allow for a larger contribution by repealing the 25% premium limit and raise the dollar limitation on premiums to 200,000 that will be adjusted each year for inflation.

Speaker 2 (10:50): Additionally, the measure in the bill will clarify the joint and survivor benefits in the invent of a divorce and establish a 90 day free look, period, to ensure that investors are purchasing a product that fits their needs. As a result, we think making these changes will allow workers and retirees to keep more of their tax deferred savings longer and obtain that protected, guaranteed monthly income throughout their lifetime. This provision is now in both the house and Senate bills with the same language. So that's a good sign that it will make it through, but we at IRI were somewhat disappointed to see that one of the Q L a C reforms that was initially included in one of the Senate bills that were introduced, that we were advocating for was not included. And that was the provision that would've allowed Q a CS to be offered through a diverse slate of index and variable annuity contracts with guaranteed benefits. And we understand that that was eliminated because that would've significantly increased the total cost of the bill by billions of dollars for which they did not identify any additional revenue raising provisions to pay for that.

Speaker 1 (12:02): Yeah. And it's not a done deal until it's a done deal for sure. And bill, I wanted to ask you about the provisions that create the best opportunities here, opportunities for financial professionals, if both these bills do become

Speaker 3 (12:14): Law. Yeah. Dan, there's a lot here, a lot of different provisions. Let's start with the Q L a C that Paul discussed. This is something that every financial professional should be discussing with their clients. This is a really great opportunity with a Q L a C. You're able to take some money from your qualified plan and put it into an annuity, and that money will be exempt from required minimum distributions. So once you reach age 72, which is the current RMD date, and you have to start taking money out of your qualified plans, if you have a Q a C, some of that is gonna be exempt. And that's really critical because what are we worried about with retirement? All of us are worried we're gonna outlive our savings, right? We're gonna reach 90, 95, hopefully, and we're gonna run outta money. And if you have a Q L a C in your portfolio that can hedge against that longevity risk and, and be very effective. And so there's some really good changes as Paul mentioned, and hopefully some of those changes and, and more can get passed when the final law is passed.

Speaker 1 (13:07): So we just talked about some of the key provisions of this act, bill, what other ones stand out to you?

Speaker 3 (13:13): What secure act 2.0 is, is trying to do is, is to get more people to save, right? There's not enough people who have saved for retirement in our country, and Congress is worried about it. And auto enrollment can be very effective at that by, by somewhat forcing someone to, uh, to enroll, I say somewhat, because you can always opt out of auto enrollment, but under this legislation, if a company offers a retirement plan, they may automatically enroll an employee in it. And so they would start taking, assuming the employee doesn't opt out, they would start taking a percentage of their salary for retirement. And, and stats have shown that this is really effective when there's no auto enrollment plan about half of employees contribute to retirement. But when there is auto enrollment, about nine out of 10 do so we've seen it be highly effective to encourage people to say for retirement.

Speaker 4 (14:00): Yeah. And then I would jump in there too, and say, when you have auto enrollment, often auto escalation is paired with that. And that is so critical. If they can enrolled at a certain percentage level, they'll just leave it there. They get defaulted into a portfolio, or they, or they choose a portfolio, just leave it there and, and not kind of think about it, and they'll never see it. So they'll just budget for whatever their increase was and continue to save more without, and be able to do that fairly painlessly. And so ultimately that creates more opportunity. And the more flexibility financial professionals will have to help people work with that portfolio and, and create what they need to enjoy the best retirement they

Speaker 3 (14:35): Can. Going along these lines. Another provision that will really encourage people to save for retirement, I think is emergency access. I think any financial professional would tell you, you need to start with emergency money. Retirement money is, is great. Everybody should prepare for it. But first of all, you should have money set aside for those emergencies that arise in preparing for this. I, I found a stat that was really astounding, that was reported by CNBC in January, 2022. And it was based off a survey from bank rate, 56% of Americans can't cover a $1,000 emergency with money in their savings that I was floored by that that's a scary stat. So what Congress is, is talking about doing in this bill is to allowing people to have access to emergency money. There's a couple ways in the different bills where Congress goes about this, but either forcing money into an emergency bucket before it goes into the retirement plan or allowing penalty free S from their retirement plan for emergency money, by doing this, it'll hopefully give people some security that they'll be able to access that money. If there is a medical or other financial emergency in their lives, that retirement money is not gonna be locked away with penalties, or at least not all of it, they'll be able to access some of it to address those concerns.

Speaker 2 (15:45): And I, I think it's also important to note that on these emergency savings, I know a number of folks in the industry when this was initially being discussed, had concerns about leakage would this cause leakage. But we think that the guardrails that are put around in both these options that are being offered in the Senate bill of a thousand dollars penalty, free withdrawal, it requires that it be repaid within a three year period before you can take anything else out. So that sort of cuts down on taking out money like every year and in the side car savings option, that's also being offered. You know, you can save up to 2,500 and then whatever your contribution is of your salary that reaches you to that 2,500 beyond that, as bill mentioned, goes into your retirement account.

Speaker 1 (16:28): And when it comes to what financial professionals should be doing right now, just to prepare for the potential passage of this, what would you say to them? I mean, is it just becoming educated, doing the research, learning what could be coming?

Speaker 3 (16:41): Yeah. Um, get educated, listen to this podcast, you're doing a good job by listening to this. So, you know, my team at, at global Atlantic, we're out there trying to educate financial professionals on this legislation and, and other legislation that's pending out there. There's a lot here. And then financial professionals don't always have the time to read up on, on legislation. And so we can do that for you and hopefully summarize it. So, you know, come to our website, come to our, your thriving practice site at global Atlantic. And we can have a lot of this information.

Speaker 1 (17:06): And Frank, your thoughts on that, about just becoming ready for what's on the way.

Speaker 4 (17:11): Yeah. I think it's also important for financial professionals to kind of understand the foundational aspects of what's happening in RMDs and how QX can help address that. So now we're going from before secure 2019, you were starting your RMDs at 70 and a half right now, you're starting them at 75. So two things are happening there that's five additional years of growth of the portfolio, and it's also five years older. So that R and D is gonna be higher for two reasons for the growth and for your being five years older. So if you take that and let's use the example, you know, Paul gave when ultimately secure 2.0 passes, if you're able to take 200,000 of a million dollar portfolio and put it in a Q a C you know, you've done two things for the client that are really important, right? One, and I don't think either one of these necessarily sits by itself as an absolute necessity, depending on the client's needs, but when you put them together and you get this dual benefit of putting 200,000 in the Q L a C, now you have guaranteed income.

Speaker 4 (18:08): That's gonna start say, you did that at 65, that guaranteed income is gonna start at 80 or even 85, whatever makes the most sense for that client. You know, you're gonna have that guaranteed income as that backstop for that point, latent life, when you might need additional income for medical cost being higher, whatever happens to the rest of the portfolio, you know, that's there and it gives you some certainty, but at the same time, it's gonna reduce your RMDs. And just, just a back of the envelope calculation. If you think about an 8% return on a million dollar portfolio, you take 200,000 of that out and put it in the Q L a C at age 65, you're gonna drop your RMDs at age 75, by $20,000, or the RMDs are gonna be commensurately less because ultimately when the Q a C starts to pay, the RMDs are, are embedded in there. But until that happens, you know, there isn't a, a tax consequence. So you get additional tax deferral kind of happening on both sides on the RMD and on the Q a C. So, you know, a lot of that can get a little bit confusing and that, I think that's why it's so important for financial professionals to really understand what these provisions are going to allow them to do, and the additional opportunities it's gonna create for them to work more effectively with their clients.

Speaker 1 (19:14): And Frank, it does get confusing, but I think what you're saying there in part is that the act could actually impact different age groups in different ways, depending on their age, correct.

Speaker 4 (19:24): Oh, sure. Yes, absolutely. And I think I would go back and say, you know, that , it might impact those there who are 30, you know, just as much because they're gonna need to be thinking about being in their plan, having additional options, having the opportunity to allocate some of their contributions to an annuity that, you know, maybe they don't even initially need to be thinking about income, but it's being in, you know, something like a fixed index annuity that can take some of your bond portion of your portfolio and, you know, put it into a product that has a bond like return without interest rate risk, to the extent that those options are available and accumulating in an implant annuity over time, that'll ultimately give you a guaranteed source of income retirement. So this spans the age spectrum from early working years, all the way through late retirement.

Speaker 3 (20:09): Speaking of generations, I think one of the most interesting provisions in these bills is what I'm calling the student loan match. So here Congress is really tackling two major issues, retirement and student loans, right? We've heard a lot about student loans in the media. You know, there's been some in the Biden administration who have talked about paying off, you know, a big portion of the student loans. Other people who already paid theirs off have said no way, no one paid off my loans and the government shouldn't do that. So here Congress is getting creative. They're saying, okay, if you're paying off your student loans, you might not be able to save for retirement because you're worried about your student loans. But here with this bill, the company, the employer can match that with retirement contributions. So what you pay for your student loans can be matched in retirement by your employer.

Speaker 1 (20:51): And Paul, I wanted to raise another, I guess, item with you, which is, are there any provisions that are currently in, or might end up in the act that could have negative implications for producers and their clients?

Speaker 2 (21:04): You can make a catch up contribution set by the IRS limits each year and that's tax deferred. In addition to whatever you're contributing to your 401k or other IRA plan that you may have that's tax deferred, that's gonna change for the catchup contributions. That's gonna now be required to be treated as Roth contributions. So you're paying tax on it now, but when you retire, you wouldn't have to pay any tax on that, cuz you've already paid tax on those additional contributions. So that could affect some retirement planning strategies and could be a potential negative consequence. And

Speaker 1 (21:44): Frank is kind of the resident research expert here in the group. What do you see over the next few months? What are the biggest points of contention with this bill right now? What are the most agreed upon sections?

Speaker 4 (21:54): I think what it comes down to is different provisions are going to have different levels of difficulty and gestation. If you will, in terms of having them actually become practically available, that's gonna require a lot of education out to plan sponsors, plan providers, and ultimately to the participants themselves. You know, when we think about putting annuities and plans, many participants, if I might even argue, most participants may not even have ever heard of an annuity. And, and if they have heard of an annuity, they've probably heard something negative and that's all they know that they just have a negative impression of the product, but they don't really know what it does. And, and that's an interesting thing that we've seen in our research and that it has been done a few times in, in some, some very significant research studies that have been conducted by our members is when you ask people in the context of a survey, if they're interested in an option that will give them a, a guaranteed lifetime income and retirement, you're 90%, uh, of your respondents say, absolutely bring it on.

Speaker 4 (22:52): I would love that you attach the word annuity to that question. And that goes the other way, right? So I think education and the investment options, the annuity options, the things that are gonna be available based on this act is gonna be critically important. And that's an infrastructure thing that I think we're gonna have to see built out over time, but there's a very big ground swell of, of interest in, in making that happen. I think in the industry. And I think we'll see the benefit of that. Not only being participants, having access to this, not only being participants becoming more educated about retirement and the associated risks that they face and the opportunities that they have to create their ideal retirement, but we're also, you know, going to see a much better awareness in the future about what annuities really do, because it'll be in the context and of their plan.

Speaker 4 (23:41): And I think a, a comparison I would make is, you know, I would do a, what if on this and what if the original Arisa provisions that created the defined contribution plan in the first place only allowed fixed options only allowed, you know, GIS or something like that. Right? And then people went all the way through and participated in that plan. And then they got to retirement and they heard about a mutual fund for the first time and had never heard of what a mutual fund was before. Right. Well, there would be a lot of education that would be necessary there in order to help them understand what a mutual fund does. So I think this is a analogous to that, right? They're not gonna have a lot of information about annuities, either about their structure or their use. And that information will start becoming available through plans for an increasing number of participants. As we, as we move through time,

Speaker 2 (24:27): Dan, I, I would just say having been involved in the negotiations and still involved in the negotiations with our friends up on the hill, the members of Congress and their staff who are working on this, I think now that the Senate has spoken with its two bills, we have the house bill that passed as bill mentioned earlier, 14th to five, whatever is sort of in those three bills are what's gonna form the basis for what's being considered for a final deal. I caveat that with, you know, nothing is done until it's done. So we don't expect to see anything come in out of left field, but who knows. And then if both bills have provisions, as I mentioned, seeking the same objective, but taking different approaches to achieving that goal, I think that was, have the next best chance of making it in to the final bill

Speaker 1 (25:16): And bill. I want to bring you in to ask you just about the conversations that you're having with your colleagues when it comes to this legislation, are you talking about how you would plan if it passes and you also talking about what happens if it doesn't

Speaker 3 (25:29): Well, we're working with the expectation it's, it's going to pass. As Paul mentioned, there's still a lot of unknowns. We don't know exactly when this is gonna pass and what's go going to be in it, but we're, we're preparing for those opportunities if the bill passes. And so, you know, a couple things that we've been discussing, which people really like, one is a long term care exception. So crisis, I feel like I've been overusing that word during this podcast. We talked about retirement crisis student loan crisis. And now we have the long term care crisis. For those of us who are fortunate to reach the age of 65, 70% will need long term care. Now how many people do you know who have long-term care insurance? Probably not a lot. And so in the Senate bill, there is a provision where you can take out $2,500 per year without a penalty to pay for long term care insurance.

Speaker 3 (26:12): And the reason I'm talking about that with our financial professionals, it's kind of a, win-win not only are your clients saving for retirement and giving opportunities for the financial professional to help manage that. But there's a long term care insurance sale. There that's naturally building where you could take that money out of the retirement plan and by long-term care insurance, another topic is women. A lot of financial professionals are thinking, how can we serve women more? I know there's some great podcasts. I'll put in a plug for our form of podcasts that go and look at the library. And you'll see some of that topic here in secure act one back in, in 2019, they expanded the ability of part-time workers to participate in retirement plans. And that's expanded even more with secure act 2.0. So, you know, women disproportionately tend to be part-time workers. And so a lot of women have missed out on the ability to participate in their company's retirement plan because of it in secure act 2.0 will help to address that.

Speaker 2 (27:05): There's also provision in the Senate bill that would, uh, waive the 10% early distribution penalty to the victims of domestic abuse. Now they're not always women. Most often they are sadly, but that distribution is capped at $10,000 or 50% of the count balance. If, if that's lesser and the, uh, amount that's withdrawn may be redistributed to a tax preferred retirement account. So that's another benefit that was in there that was advocated for, by a number of the women legislators, actually on the committees to ensure that that was in there.

Speaker 1 (27:42): So Paul, how could producers work to influence Congress as the bill evolves, making sure aspects of the bill that are the most important to them get due consideration?

Speaker 2 (27:52): Well, Dan, I think the simple answer is contact your member of Congress, tell them how important it is for them to enact this legislation. I think financial professionals are really in a unique position to weigh in with your elected officials, particularly on a topic like secure 2.0 because it not only will help you and your business as a financial professional, but more importantly will help strengthen and enhance the retirement security of the clients you serve in the area where the representative is representing them. And your voice is much stronger than our voice because you can actually vote for this person to make sure they continue to serve as an elected official. And it's really easy to find out who your representatives are and how to contact them. If you don't know already, there are a number of online tools that you can use to find your representative by using your zip code or address or a combination of both and every member of the house of representatives.

Speaker 2 (28:47): Every Senator has a website. And normally there's a way that you can provide a message on a topic, urging them to action. Particularly this year, being that it's an election year, there could be some other opportunities in, in your local neighborhoods to reach out to the members in the house. They're up for reelection this year, every member is, and in the Senate about a third of senators are up. So you should be on a lookout cuz I'm sure when they're back in the district, they're holding town halls as well as they may be participating in debates with their opponents who are challenging them in the November elections.

Speaker 1 (29:17): What happens if this act dies? Does all of this go out the window?

Speaker 2 (29:21): If it's not passed by December 31st, 2022, sadly. Yes. The way Congress operates are on two year sessions bills that are introduced during the session. If they do not pass both houses and signed by the president, they die and we'd have to start the process, uh, sadly all over again during the next session of Congress, which will be the hundred 18 session. But we're very optimistic that given the strong bipartisan support for this bill, the interest in doing something in the retirement space, that this is going to get done this year. We're continuing to be optimistic about that, but till it happens, uh, we, we're not sure. So we're gonna keep working at it really hard to make sure they try to get this done before they leave in December

Speaker 1 (30:08): And Frank final thoughts from you.

Speaker 4 (30:09): I would come back around to what an incredible opportunity all of this creates for financial professionals, because there are going to be more workers with higher balances and more options to consider. And they're gonna need advice. They're gonna need guidance. They're gonna need education. So for my money, anything that connects people more closely to those folks is a win for everyone.

Speaker 1 (30:33): Bill, go ahead. Your final thoughts.

Speaker 3 (30:34): Yeah. Dan I'll reiterate what Paul and Frank said there there's, there's a lot of great thanks. And these bills for Americans to help them save for retirement. And it's great for financial professionals because there's a lot to talk about here. Financial professionals wanna have a reason to bring people in their office, wanna have a reason to, to call up a client. And there's gonna be a lot to talk about if hopefully this law passes later this year and it'll be a great opportunity to revisit some of these issues and talk to their clients, educate them and build a stronger relationship.

Speaker 1 (31:04): It's a critical time for this piece of legislation. Bill crane, Frank O'Connor Paul Richmond. Thank you all for being here for this conversation today. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. So if you enjoyed this episode, make sure to download the global Atlantic, your thriving practice podcast, to stay in the loop on any changes or upon passage of the secure act. Later this year, at that time we'll regroup and review any changes and what effects they may have on your business and your clients. I'm Dan Corper thanks so much for being with us and we'll see you next time, global Atlantic, your thriving practice podcasts, or available on apple podcasts, Spotify and Google podcasts, as well as by visiting global atlantic.com/professionals.

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